Mini Talon QuadPlane Conversion (cont.)

A VTOL or copter needs a good compass without interference for direction when hovering. What if we test the compass? Can you use only a single compass and place it temporarily higher as an experiment?

Its a 405-wing, external compass only…in gps…12 inch away from any power leads…I dont think its a compass thing…the key to me is that going from 0 to a lot of demanded clockwise yaw rate has no real effect of the hard left the motors are being driven to…PID gain can affect that (it does a little, tried 4X on yaw P, as well as eliminating totally the YAW headroom param which limits total average throttle max )…again with no real impacts…also checked VIBs…they are low…

although overall power shouldnt matter, only affecting climb ability, I have ordered SS2216/1250s to run with 8-9" props…that will double the available thrust while adding 80gr to the weight…should hover at 35% or so…maybe that will work…shouldn’t matter, but will try it…

Hello,

This is first time for me setting up a quad (even if it is a plane).

1.I did qautotune on roll axe. I am not sure it did a good work. How can i check it? What are the parameter key to look at in .log file?
2. Than i was going to autotune on pitch axe. I wanted to do it in qloiter mode but i found it was not really good at maintain position. Could you please help me read the .log file and tune it better?

Plane is a mini talon with quad racing motors and 4in1 blheli_32 esc.

EDIT: this is the only way for me to upload a file. I can not upload it directly. https://gofile.io/?c=Wj5r2W

changed motor mounts to eliminate any possible alignment issues by mounting flat on the carbon tubes…and upgraded to SS2216/1250s (dont think that was the issue, the mounts must have been)…first transition and flight
todo:
experiments with motor mounts to add back in the 6deg forward tilt to reduce flight drag and increase hover lift in wind , also want to try 3deg “tilt inward” to increase yaw power of motors…those thin gruapner props cant be producing a lot of torque

retune gimbal…been out of service for a year and has a little roll shake

try different lipo than Mulitstar 10C 4s 5200mah…lots of drop at 30amps!

Henry,

That looks much better, congrats! It sounds like you have some angry hornets aboard with those smaller props. I’m using a Multistar 4s 10C 8AH pack (22.5oz) in my MT without issue. I love the way the MT flies like it is on rails!

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Step,

I have never used QAUTOTUNE so try posting your question in the thread below. Why did you think that you needed to tune the quad mode? Can you post a video?

QAUTOTUNE - VTOL autotune for quadplanes

Typically, I would make sure that the QuadPlane flies well first in QSTABILIZE mode, then QHOVER mode, then QLOITER mode. For this, you need some quadcopter flying experience.

Good luck!

Hi greg,

This is first time for me with 4 propellers!
So sometimes i may have some doubts.

I feel it hovers good. Also loiter is good.

Yaw is a problem: when i move the stick it starts rotating, than it overshots and try to correct again and it feels so imprecise.
I know quadplanes are not good at yaw, but i know it can do better than this, for sure.

Also: how do i know how much throttle does it need to hover? Can you say it from the log?

Yes, you simply graph the signals to the four quad motors during hover. Here is the graph from your log file below. You can see that your level is about mid-range (1500) during the initial QHOVER and QLOITER mode testing. This is fine.

Next time, post the .BIN file, not the .LOG file. You can try running QAUTOTUNE on the Yaw axis or changing Q_A_RAT_YAW_P slowly by 0.1 increments. These are my values below.

Q_A_RAT_YAW_D,0
Q_A_RAT_YAW_FF,0
Q_A_RAT_YAW_FILT,5
Q_A_RAT_YAW_I,0.018
Q_A_RAT_YAW_IMAX,0.222
Q_A_RAT_YAW_P,0.4

Here is a short “one handed” video i did few minutes ago.
Zero wind, qloiter mode, 2.5kg auw

Step,

I think it looks pretty good! It won’t be a rock-solid hover with those small props and it doesn’t really need to be. The idea is to get off the ground quickly and go fly!

The original Mozzie looked about the same. I built mine more for demos than efficiency so the larger 3-blade props have a stronger hover hold.

Good luck!

I agree with you Greg.
This is inspired to mozzie.
I will try 5" propellers instead than 6040 i have mounted now.
Will aso try a two blade instead of three.

Than, once i find a good setup, i will put some aerodinamic fairing on motors.

Yaw has to be tuned, definitely.

Keep in mind that your current power level with the 6" props looks good from the graph above.

Mhh…do you think it could result in an under-powered setup? I think it could.

Yes. The current power level is good.

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After flying as a standard MiniTalon, two different conversions of quad motor QuadPlanes, I converted it to a Tilt Tricopter QuadPlane. I used MarkQ’s qv.com/QVM/index.php?title=X-UAV_Mini_Talon_VTOL_Project conversion as a starting point.
Its much heavier than a new model would be since it been crashed umpteen times…22 hot glue sticks and ply re-enforcing adds to weight…2.2Kg instead of 1.8Kg that it should be!
It follows Mark’s design generally except I used a miniquad carbon arm in the tail since I didnt want to fabricate a carbon mount there, 10mm square carbon tubes, because its easier to secure things to them instead of round, even though a little less strong.
But I wanted to see how simple I could make the tilt mechanism, mechanically and to 3D print. I hate long print times! It uses one of the cheapest 9G servos and no ball bearings, just to see if its possible. And although there is some slop and imprecision, the MiniTalon and ArduPilot handle it!
I had tuned the yaw on a calm day and had it overtuned as you see it wag in the windy turbulence. In fact the wind was so high (15mph gusting to 20mph) that could not VTOL land in the wind, after switching to QLOITER to land, it could only maintain about 10mph forward…so I had to land crosswind, since it can actually move a little faster sideways since the roll limit is higher than the pitch limit…

The tilt mechanism is simple to print and build, but next I am going to just add ball bearings and a bit smoother servo (double ball bearing) for enhanced durability and the ability to get a tighter tune without wag. Virtually no change was required to the printed parts, so printed easily still.

Hi Henry,

Nice job! I liked the low level transition just before landing. My preference is still to use QSTABILIZE in those conditions as it gives me the best stick control. It may be from flying copters for years.

The MT is a good flyer in some wind, and, when you load it up for VTOL, it doesn’t seem to matter because you no longer need to hand-toss it or try to slow it up before landing. It would have been interesting to see a comparison performance using the QuadPlane version since it provides better capability in those conditions. It’s all a trade-off for what your goals may be.

Cheers!

Just look on my youtube channel…the two videos preceding this one are two different MT standard quadplane setups…the older uses cross frame arms, the Dashware example was from a version with wing mounted arms…

Great project - congratulation Henry. I’m thinking of our discussion about the Quad / Tri efficiency comparison. Here are two films (18 months ago) about our 2.2 kg mini talon: (60 km/h = 38 mph):
a) https://vimeo.com/278828784
b) https://vimeo.com/292792793

Cheers!

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It looks to be made under different conditions but I suspect that the QuadPlane version would have similar performance under either condition and only the Tilt-tricopter to be weaker in the wind.

yeah, my experience so far, but only if the wind exceeds the planes ability to progress with pitch forward …and use use VFWD_GAIN… Also, you have to have enough power and the tri is marginal…its hover is at 67%…The other quadplane flights were with 10mph wind or less…I used the same params in all Qplanes for limits of pitch…I just reviewed them and the QLOITER pitch limit was only 15 degs…whereas the limit in other VTOL modes is 30degs…I suspect that even this tri could have matched 15mph if I had used QSTAB instead of QLOITER and that the other quad versions would not have been able to station keep in that high wind unless I used forward gain…