Where would I change vectored thrust mixing in the source code?

Control surfaces are active in VTOL modes, but their deflection is scaled down at low airspeeds. See https://github.com/ArduPilot/ardupilot/blob/master/ArduPlane/Attitude.cpp#L26

but note that this only works if you have an airspeed sensor.

David…
Im not sure about throttle mixing with tilt angle but I would think that would be a part of thrust vectoring. alternatively, would the gyros want to change thrust (maybe with an angular tilt limiter/expander) depending on what the airframe’s orientation is?

agreed on the liniting of the rear tilt.

i would think the control surfaces should function in MR to help with wind shifts while the plane is weathervaning.

thanks for the info Mark.

OK, I have performed a full translation of Kris’s code documentation to see if we can figure out how he made these mods to the code. Its interesting that he says he “Synchronized the official code” with each new update. It appears that he did not but I could be wrong.

The readme is attached.

Kris Translated notes.txt (188.6 KB) thanks

Jeff

Where does Kris’s notes come from? Is this the source that we do no have available? I think we can use the code from kd0aij and mix the elevator to a throttle channel for tilting elevator in MR. It should be possible to add the tailrotor to the existing tiltrotor.cpp or quadplane.cpp code, I just need to figure out how to do that the best way, plus figure out how to test it in sitl. I haven’t felt that great lately, having had both heart and lung surgery 3 months ago, but I will try to get to it before the end of the year. Just FYI, heart surgery was no really big deal, lung surgery sux!!!

A heart and lung surgery??? What the heck happened? I hope your recovery goes well… Once again thank you very much for looking at this.

As far as Kris’s notes, I think he wrote them… they are in chinese/taiwanese and included with each of his releases. The source code has not been made available despite Philip Rowse (developer of the Cube) employing some of his associates in China to contact Kris.

Ive just moved so my life is in boxed chaos and I will be reading through the translated notes to see what clues are there. I would suggest starting at his first notes… could show you where to start.

I wish I could help more but I have no clue how the firmware processes flight control.

Thanks again and please let me know if I can help you with your recovery at all.

Jeff

High blood pressure caused my aorta to rupture (I’m 55). I felt a sharp pain between my shoulder blades. After about 20 minutes I had my gf take me to the ER. They stuck me in a heli for a flight to a another hospital that handle bad cardiac cases, and they did surgery in time. But something went wrong during the aortic resection and my right lung was damaged. About a week later they removed 2/3s of it, and a week later went back in to fix a couple of issues with my lung. You don’t ever want lung surgery. They kept me a month and I lost 30-40 lbs!! I could barely walk when I got home. After 3 months I’m getting lots better, but stairs still kill me. I wrote this off-topic reply mostly as a warning to others, as you get older watch that blood pressure!! There are some serious complications. I had no idea my aorta could rupture. Never heard of that before, and usually if it happens the pressure just blows a hole out the side and you die quickly. I got really lucky and my aorta separated into layers and just leaked, but if I had not been flown to the surgeon I would likely not have made it in an ambulance.

I’ still studying the code and wishing for either good weather, or some place to cut foam about the size of an X8. I live in a condo and the isn’t any good place to work, but I really want to build a tricopter vtol, mostly just scaling up a convergence to 2 meters. I’m still debating tilting the tail rotor for forward flight. What are the advantages over using more powerful wing motors? Control in the wind? If that is the case should it tilt in all 4 directions?

Well that is really lucky you made it. Im 57 so Im in the same boat. The business I own is boat canvas and awnings so it keeps me moving and I eat fairly healthy… I stay away from fast and fried food for the most part.

Where do you live? Im near Sarasota FL… maybe I can build you a plane or mail you my prototype wing… its got 2 of the tilt servos on the front and its all carbon fiber. I have a large table (8 x 20’) and a CNC so I can cut CF and other materials (My CNC is down due to my recent move).

As far as the aft motor, it only needs to tilt fore/aft due to the front motors still controlling yaw (like your convergence). Im rethinking the aft motor’s functions… maybe just have it tilt to stay level when the airframe is pitched and flip back for FW mode.

have you had a chance to read through Kris’s notes? I havent found anything very interesting in the earlier notes he made when his build was new.

Im glad you’re doing better and take it easy.

Jeff

I went through all of Kris’s notes and thought these were relevant:
(note, they start when the Y3x3 features were implemented)

20170810 (V3.8.1-DEV)

  1. Add three vector Y3 support, just put
    Q_TILT_MASK=11
    Servo*_Function=45 (post vector tilt steering gear)

20171006 (V3.8.2-DEV)

  1. Added Y6F model and corrected some GPS write log problems.
    Q_M_THST_EXPO (motor thrust curve) allows setting a negative value, close to 0 for linear, otherwise curve.
    Note: If the Q_M_THST_EXPO parameter is set to 0, please change it to 0.1 (minimum), the default is 0.65.

  2. The tilted double-difference sensitivity parameter is uniformly changed to RUDD_DT_GAIN (default is 10=10%), which will be used for fixed wings.
    All modes (including manual mode) usually have a good cornering effect of 20%~30%.

  3. Parameters similar to multi-axis CH?_OPT:
    RC7_TRIM ~ RC12_TRIM value:
    3=3 vector Y3 dedicated (low position = rear side single motor thrust, neutral = front side double motor thrust, high position = front and rear three motor thrust)


20171011 (V3.8.2-DEV)

*2. Added fixed wing vector parameters (default is off)
Q_TILT_FIX_ANGLE=10 (fixed wing vector angle, 0=off, 10=10 degrees)
Q_TILT_FIX_GAIN=100 (fixed wing vector sensitivity, 0=off, 100=100%)
Debugging method:

  1. First Q_TILT_FIX_ANGLE=10, Q_TILT_FIX_GAIN=100
  2. Switch the manual/QStabilize mode and set the Servo9_Min/Servo9_Max and Servo10_Min/Servo10_Max strokes.
    3.QStabilize mode, push the throttle (do not unlock), try the angle of YAW (the paddle will swing one after the other, but will not cut the wing)
  3. Manual mode, push the throttle (do not unlock), hit the elevator test angle (same as above), play the aileron test angle (will be one after the other),
  4. FBW* mode, push the throttle (do not unlock), the fuselage leans forward, the steering angle is upward, and the right is tilted to the steering angle.
  5. If you have adjusted it, put Q_TILT_FIX_GAIN=50 and lift it up. If you feel that it is not enough, increase it yourself (up to 100%).
    use:
    The vector is used to assist the fixed-wing rudder surface correction, and the rudder failure still has some control ability.

20171030 (V3.8.2-DEV)2.TECS: Improved support for VTOL conversion

  1. Added Q_MAV_TYPE parameter to send heartbeat type to some ground stations to avoid ground station disconnection. The values ​​are as follows:
    0: AUTO, 1: FIXED_WING, 2: QUADROTOR, 3: COAXIAL, 4: HELICOPTER, 7: AIRSHIP, 8: FREE_BALLOON,
    9: ROCKET, 10: GROUND_ROVER, 11: SURFACE_BOAT, 12: SUBMARINE, 16: FLAPPING_WING, 17: KITE,
    19: VTOL_DUOROTOR, 20: VTOL_QUADROTOR, 21: VTOL_TILTROTOR

  2. Added Q_OPTIONS parameter to allow the drooping model to choose to use the fixed wing to take off and land.
    Bit representation:
    Bit0: LevelTransition (the wing tilt must be within the LEVEL_ROLL_LIMIT angle when converting to a fixed wing)
    Bit1: AllowFWTakeoff (can take off with a fixed wing)
    Bit2: AllowFWLand (can be landed with a fixed wing)
    For example, 1 (bit0) means that the wing must remain within the LEVEL_ROLL_LIMIT angle during the transition.
    For example, 6 (bit1, bit2) indicates that the take-off and landing are allowed using the fixed-wing mode (instead of the sag mode).


20180127 (V3.9.0-DEV)

*2. Modify the Y3 conversion algorithm, mainly for Y3, when the crosswind transitions, the left and right wings will swing forward (not beautiful).
Can be modified by Q_WVANE_MINROLL=1~3 (usually a value between 1 and 3)
You can start with 0.5 (0.5 1 1.5 2 2.5 3) until the rocking phenomenon disappears.

*3. Modify the multi-axis attitude algorithm to integrate the high-speed tilt servo, if you use high-quality high-speed tilt servo
With reference to the new parameter tuning, multi-axis performance is better (hands and more wind resistant).


20180502 (V3.9.0-DEV) Version Identifier: fd4463

note:
This new version of the firmware code changes quite a bit, from the old version to this version may need to adjust the parameters
Can fly, so it is recommended that novices do not use for the time being, let the friends who are familiar with PID first try.

  1. Vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) optimization
    Replace the old multi-axis attitude control with a new position control algorithm.
    Use a new rate attitude controller during the transition (transition) (the transition is smoother / the height control is better)
    The horizontal position controller runs at full speed of 400hz (old 50hz)
    New L1 distance calculation method (turning will be smoother)

20180713 (V3.10.0-DEV) Version Identifier: 08da22

*3.Q_TILT_DN_THR and Q_TILT_UP_THR are renamed to Q_TILT_THR_DN and Q_TILT_THR_UP
This way the parameter tables will be arranged together for easy viewing.


20180802 (V3.10.0-DEV) 版本识别码:5d923aed

*5. The remote control function switch is changed from RC?_TRIM to RC7_OPT ~ RC9_OPT, because TRIM will be troubled by zeroing each time the remote controller is calibrated.
The RC?_OPT function code is as follows:
0=disabled
3=3 vector Y3 dedicated (low position = rear side single motor thrust, neutral = front side double motor thrust, high position = front and rear three motor thrust)
4=4 tilting X4 dedicated (low position = rear side double motor thrust, medium position = front side double motor thrust, high position = front and rear four motor thrust)
104=switch center = LOITER (circle), switch high = RTL (self-return)
106=switch center = FBWB (FBWB fixed mode), switch high = CRUISE (cruise mode)
109=Camera shutter trigger
116=Auto mode (cancelled, because of doubts, the control and re-control will switch to the mode of the main mode switch instead of automatic)
118=QLand mode (in-situ multi-axis mode self-drop)
124=Air Mission Reset
128=Relay 1 (switch high = on, switch low = off)
134=Relay 2 (switch high = on, switch low = off)
135=Relay 3 (switch high = on, switch low = off)
136=Relay 4 (switch high = on, switch low = off)
E.g:
RC7_OPT=104, the remote control switch CH7 is in the Loiter mode when it is in the middle position, and it is RTL when it is turned on.
RC9_OPT=109, the remote control switch CH9 will take a photo when it hits the high position (and will store the CAM bit)


20180816 (V3.10.0-DEV) 版本识别码:0f7c837d

*4. Other minor modifications:
.THR_MAX Fixed wing maximum throttle limit changed to proportional scaling.
For three-turn type: switch height = 3 power / switch medium = double front pull / switch low = single push back
RC?_OPT=3 (In the same way, the motor that is not used will not automatically dump back)
RC?_OPT=31 (same function, but the tail motor will automatically dump back when double forward pull)
RC?_OPT=32 (same function, the tail motor will automatically dump back when double forward pull, the front pull motor will automatically dump back when single push back)


20181216 (V3.10.0-DEV) 版本识别码:1f8db08d

  1. Added multi-axis mode auto-tuning (QAUTOTUNE mode), automatic tuning steps:
    a) Set any flight mode to QAUTOTUNE mode
    Since the current Mission Planner does not recognize this mode (there will be an update later), so enter the full parameter list will
    FLTMODE?=22 (number of QAUTOTUNE mode), for example, temporarily change the original FBWA (number 5) to 22.
    b) Set the parameter Q_AUTOTUNE_AGGR=0.1 (0.1 = aggressive, 0.075 = medium, 0.050 = weak)
    This hopes to automatically adjust the results of the adjustments, the greater the value, the more aggressive (corrected and strong)
    c) Select the parameter Q_AUTOTUNE_AXES to select the combination of the axes (roll, pitch, yaw) to be adjusted.
    Q_AUTOTUNE_AXES=1 (only roll)
    Q_AUTOTUNE_AXES=2 (only the pitch axis is adjusted)
    Q_AUTOTUNE_AXES=4 (only adjust the yaw axis)
    Q_AUTOTUNE_AXES=7 (three axes are adjusted together, 1+2+4=7, of course, 1+4=5 only roll + yaw)
    The suggestion to hang up is adjusted by one axis to prevent the battery from running out, or to suspend the ESC for a long time.
    d) Find a windless or breezy sky and wide field to take off in multi-axis mode (QS/QH/QL mode), then cut the switch to just
    The specified QAUTOTUNE mode.
    Note: The adjustment mode is similar to QHOVER (the fixed height mode), the throttle is centered and the height is fixed, so pay attention to your throttle to be centered.
    e) At this time, the automatic adjustment will start. If you run too far, you can pull the rod back (you can get in at any time). After pulling back, the pole will continue to adjust.
    When it is no longer shaking, it means that the adjustment has been completed. At this time, you can try it with a shot. If you feel satisfied, you will land in QAUTOTUNE mode.
    And locking is memory, if you are not satisfied, cut to another mode and then lock (do not remember).

20190319 (V3.10.0-DEV) 版本识别码:3907466f

*5. Added support for the following variable pitch models (see HeliPlane.txt for details)
Pure pitch multi-axis (Q_ENABLE=2 will not change the aircraft, AUTO is still multi-axis mode), oil / electric can be.
.V44 variable pitch (can be tilted forward / backward tilted / fully tilted / not tilted 4 + x)
.Y3 variable pitch (can be tilted forward / full tilted)

Hello Jeff and David,

Have you had any luck with figuring out how to control the tail rotor tilt angle?

I am good at physics, have some understanding of control algorithms, and am a descent code modder. So I may be of help, but I am at the beginning of the road for this particular problem. If you can somehow inform me how far you have gone, where I should be looking at, I could pick up from there.

Thanks

Cem

I have been both too sick and too busy to work on this much. The last time i looked at the code there was no real support for yaw by tilting the two front motors, and i think that is now included. I would only try tilting the tail rotor in a transition, at least at first. I need to get back into this because my long term goal has always been to build my own LARGE vtol :slight_smile: i think there are now a couple of kits like the Freeman 2300 available.

Hi David… Im glad to hear youre hanging in there.
I purchased Real Plane 8 and designed the 3 tilt system and the plane flew but I could not make it transition. I build a hover version (tricopter) and a flying wing … all have 3 vectoring motors and it flies really well. But, without the transition there is no point. I got the “Convergence” model as well but it was a black box that could only pivot 2 props.

If you would like the models I made let me know. Im kind of doubting the capabilities of the Px4 system to be honest. the coders seem more concerned with the ability to import & manage data than fly the aircraft.

@jumpwing Would you be willing to share your RF8 models? If so, I’ll try configuring ArduPlane to support the vectored trimotor flying wing.

Hi Mark, thanks for the offer of help!

The tricopter model is the simple RF tricopter model but I put tilting motors on it.

The JumpWing model is a flying wing model with 3 tilting motors attached.

Im not sure if you have watched the video at the beginning of this post but this has already been done by a guy in China (who hasnt released his source). there are also links to the files he has uploaded.

thanks again for the help

Jeff
JumpWing_RealFlight_models.zip (11.4 KB)

RF8 can only import RFX and G3X files, as far as I know…

I hope that guy isn’t trying to sell anything.

I think these files will work because they were mods of existing planes in RF.
If I remember, one is the Tricopter 900 and the other is the alpha flying wing. I think both are included in RF and not downloaded.

The guy in China was trying to sell parts to DIY builders, but no one ever responded to my multiple messages and I actually had the guys from Cube trying to find them. nothing. really sharp business people.

Anyway, despite him getting the code to work, his design is still inefficient. Mine is based on an efficient 2 meter span wing made of carbon fiber. I have my own 2’ x 4’ CNC that i built to make parts for this project.

It should fly really well. The wings fold too so it can be carried in backpacks. Its main market is Forest fire fighters and such.

thanks

Jeff

I have maybe decided to shift gears a bit. After a lot of study the larger the plane, the worse it performs as a multicopter. I have been thinking about a manned vtol forever, but at the size needed for manned flight you run into the squared cubed law. Its just too heavy. Now im thinking a tail sitter with massive motors and variable props may be the way to go. The motors only need to make a lot of power for maybe 30 to 45 secs, until the wings take over. But will the same motor be too inefficient at cruise levels? Adding any extra motors/blades add a lot of weight or drag. Actually, extra motors and more pitch may work. I think a Warp 11 is only 200-300 lbs. But now you need huge battery power. So an ICE is needed. See the problems? That is why no one has done it yet.

youre right David… carrying bigger payloads isnt safe yet until we get better energy density from our batteries.

The big option is having an onboard generator driven by a small turbine combined with a capacitor bank instead of batteries. possibly 3 gas engines driving 2 meter+ props may lift 1 person safely but the lack of prop speed changes could be dangerous.

As far as tailsitters go, they are far too unstable in hover in any wind above 5 knots so they are totally out of the picture.

As I see it, a 3 or 4 pivoting-prop layout is the best option as it allows for a wing that has certain design elements that other aircraft dont have.

Ive designed this bird to be as efficient as possible and I still see no way to make it with a 6-7 meter span that 1 could fly on

Even a 3 prop.tail sitter? I would think it would be as stable as a tricopter, but may need to tilt on motor for yaw. I have been looking at the Puffin design which is very innovative. The Blackfly actually does fly, as does the Lilium I think. Those are the only two full size prototypes that have actually flown that I know of. The Ehang may also be in that group.

Those aircraft fly… for 10 minutes. their core designs are horribly inefficient.
My main gripe about tailsitters is their profile when they are in hover… too much exposed surfaces to wind.