Will Pixhawk2.1 be ever available on the market?

Hardware Pixhawk 2
1

Hi guys,

This post is a rant about the continuous and long term unavailability of Pixhawk2.1. It can’t be purchased anywhere in Europe and this is a matter that exists since its announced commercial availability. I can very well understand production and commercial ramp up periods and glitches. But after so long it should have disappeared.

I visit at least once per month all of the European resellers listed on the official site proficnc.com. Every single time I find a web page saying there is no stock, must pre-order, or must wait for a next batch.

To show my point, I took today a screenshot of all of the resellers web page showing Pixhawk2.1 total unavailability.

When we know this board was actually “ready” in 2014, the fact that 3 years later the board is still not “obtainable” for most users (except I suppose a few extremely lucky ones who received a test version or got one from the first batch) is not doing any good for the Ardupilot community. As I predicted in a blog post on diydrones after 3DR decided not to produce their good quality Pixhawk1 boards more than a year ago, there is today no serious nor credible alternative autopilot that can be used for semi pro or pro uses (of course you could get a hobbyking or gearbest Pixhawk1 for your leisure drones but those are not usable on a pro platform). I was expecting Pixhawk2.1 to be this next gen autopilot we could rely on. Total deception. I, and a few other semi pro and pro builders, are looking hard to find an alternative we can rely on (and purchase!). Anyone knows of any we could rely on ?

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2

Have you pre-ordered yours? If you haven’t, how do you expect to get one if batches are bought in full before they start shipping? Also, mRobotics has been building Pixhawk1 for some time now - it’s also a small production but every time I’ve gone to their shop it is available. Linux boards, like Navio2, are available too.

You talk like people were withholding their huge pile of money and not wanting to produce good, reliable autopilots just out of greed. The reality is quite the contrary, people are investing their time and money to do it for everyone else.

You say that ramp up and glitches should have disappeared after this long - I’m sure anyone is welcome to do better if they can, but they’ll have to actually do the work, not just write in a forum (behind the keyboard we are all awesome, but in the real world we all have our shortcomings and flaws).

You also talk about 3DR and PH2 being ready in 2014 like it was ArduPilot’s team fault that it didn’t got produced…

I’m sorry if my answer is harsh but I don’t see how a rant helps with anything in a community that works by helping each other out.

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Well said Francisco, perhaps not harsh enough. Most all of us appreciate what it takes to provide bleeding edge, open source technology at a reasonable price and are happy to order up front and (sort of) patiently wait for our package to come in the mail. Not to mention that it comes with continual support and upgrades. Thank you for all the work you do.

Cheers,
Randy

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To be fair to the original poster, the batches could be made in larger numbers and some surplus generated. It’s not like the components are scarce, or the batches are large enough to exceed a manufacturer’s capability.

The batches are very low numbers.

I have been waiting a couple of months since I preordered and I still haven’t received my Pixhawk (I’m hoping this week it will arrive).

That is a valid complaint. We need a product that is available.

There are alternatives like Navio and Erle, so it’s not a showstopper. I understand both side’s, and I’m not the one paying the bill to the manufacturer to get these created in large numbers.

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And about the lack of PixHawk 1 alternatives

If you don’t want to go to the Linux variations mentioned like Erle and Navio2, why not getting a AUAV or a Drotek or even from VirtualRobotix just to name a few in Europe, or from US from mDrone or from Asia from jDrones…all of these produce and sell good quality boards…

And no. I don’t have a Cube, I only have PixHawk 1 and PixRacer which are appropriate for my personal needs, and at my company we have a bunch of PixHawk’s 1

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There’s no point in retributing a rant with another one. We should always be friendly here, that’s what makes a community, even when we have different opinions. Sometimes things heat up a bit but it’s the job of all of us to tone it down and keep it nice.

Thank you for words Randy.

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How do you know that? Do you think they aren’t making more because they don’t want to?

Again, how do you know that? Do you know Hex’s capabilities? I’m sure you don’t think they have machines stopped in the factory just for their own pleasure :wink:

YES! That is very valid complaint. You have actually pre-ordered one unit and it wasn’t delivered in the expected time. And just so my opinion is complete, the complaint would still be valid even if you were issued a refund - as you had lost time and had money tied up counting on it being delivered. Still, I’m sure people can understand that bad things happen - I guess that’s why you haven’t canceled your order.

Exactly :slight_smile:

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wow!
First, thankyou @OXINARF! well said.

second @Hugues . a little background…

yes, I designed this system back in 2014… and yes, it was going to be launched in December 2014… by 3DR… but that didnt happen… we had another false start in 2015, and then it got completely cancelled.

in march 2016 I officially partnered with Hex, a very small company in China. together, we have had to build a supply chain, find factories, set up production, build test jigs, design test programs etc…

I have been supported 2 days a week to do this, and Hex have risked everything on this. We have NO investor money, No Silicon Valley startup seed funding… this is all being done on the smell of an oily rag.

On top of that, I will not tolerate anything but A grade quality. and will stand by everything that I design… as shown by the Proactive stance we took on the PWM issue.

we will not rush anything to market, we will not tolerate abuse from people that feel entitled to something from this community either.
Batch 1 went out last year, we learned from that, and put in a bunch of procedures to improve things for batch 2, Batch 2 has just been sent to customers last week…

Batch 3 goes out next week…
Batch 4 goes out April, batch 5 in May…

you can select which batch you are in by when you order! I know for a fact that some re-sellers either have stock this week, or will next week…

Oh, and by the way… many people have managed to get all the answers they need by asking nicely… and not attacking… This is a community, that is what we are about… Supporting each other, and the industry as a whole.

look around the dev team… find out who is actually managing to get paid for supporting you… I can tell you, its hardly anyone.

Hex have been kind enough to pay me 2 days a week, but I actually make a living doing consultancy for companies… the cube is not a serious source of income for me, or anyone else.

here is some maths for you…
GPS sells at $48 old 3DR GPS had less parts and was made in higher volume and sold for $79-98…

we are not here for the money… I honestly wish 3DR had continued and that they had built the Pixhawk 2 and I just worked for them… I had no desire to do this away from them, but here we are, and I am going to do my absolute best to continue to build the HIGHEST quality Autopilots in the industry.

But I must say, the >7000 people that have ordered their systems, have been very supportive of the whole exercise, you may wish to join them.

Yep there have been delays… sorry… but now its time to put your money where your mouth is, and #1, order a system… #2, join in with the community and do something usefull… I’ve added some suggestions for you…

  1. You like to write a lot… so, the Wiki need editors, new pages, more content… some instructions on how to use the cool new features are always welcome.
  2. Support on these forums… regardless of it being a PH1, 2, Cube, Pixracer, etc… the methods of tuning etc are similar… so helping people on these forums, or on Facebook is always welcome…
  3. Support your local re-seller… It was kind of you to post the lovely pages of the EU crowd up there… great to see… Offer to help spread their adds on social media, to local clubs etc…

either way, get back to enjoying what we all do… don’t drag us all down with negativity.

Peace out!
Phil!

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@proficnc

Awesome! Thats great to hear some units are on the way, ill have to touch base with my distributor. To say im excited to start working with the system is an understatement, cant wait to see what can be done with it across a few different platforms.
Thanks,
Tim

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Hey Hugues!

I feel compelled to leave some comments in regards to your desperation to get your hands on a PXH2.1.
(a feeling I share btw :wink: )

First up, as Philip pointed out, the PXH2.1 has not had the funding support that it should of had since 3DR left the scene. Making and distributing hardware is not an easy en-devour even with funding is available to go into production, let alone when it is done, nearly by shear will power alone by some of the devs. I commend them all for that, in particular Philip who’s put his hand in the fire time and time again to make it happen, at great personal cost and effort.

From my perspective I always saw APM as the development for a purpose, not for profit, to make one, if not the best opensource platform for autopilots there is. The difference here is simply to scale up production to commercial levels it needs money to pay for costs and time invested by the companies that cannot manufacture for free. If the only way open source hardware can be funded is by locking up the IP so that that can be sold to an investor, which in turn makes it closed source, then how do you fund it? Distributing open source hardware is not as easy or low cost as “copy pasting” software.

There are ways to do this, and the devs have embarked on various avenues to support their passion for APM, from their own pocket and time commitment, and to organically grow the organisation to achieve the shared goals for APM.

The point is that all of this currently only exists by the good will and commitment by those that contribute to the cause.

If we are passionate and desperate about using the best hardware and software we can afford, then maybe what the PXH and APM development lacks, is more of our own contributions to make it happen.

(in that regard Philip feel free to ping me if you think I can contribute to the wiki etc)

Regards
Sam

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I knew, unfortunately, this post would trigger such emotionally biased reactions. It is felt as attack on all kinds of people and feelings when it is not. And these victims make up intents or opinions I actually do not have. But do not count on me to enter that game.

Let me ask something. In your professional environment, if you had a frustrated customer telling you he can’t get a hold of your product and this is for the last year, would you answer the way you did here by with hominem attacks ?

I’m just communicating facts, (I admit, I only looked at in all of the European resellers site - I would be glad to buy outside of Europe at this point if available). I show the facts by publishing the screenshots (made yesterday) proving that what I’m saying is a fact, not a conspiracy against Pixhawk2.1 nor anyone around it.

I’d be glad to contribute with my money to the development of Ardupilot and Pixhawk2.1 IF ONLY I could buy some !!!

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Hi Hugues

Sorry if my comments came across as a counter attack. That was not my intention. I was only trying to illustrate that the “conventional” commercial enterprise of “supply and demand” does not apply to the PXH2 in that the development, as Philip put it, is not supported by an investor (or financier). It’s essentially a re-start-up since the departure of 3DR from this space. There’s a lot of work to get all these things up to speed with manufacturing etc etc, that 3DR already had setup for years, and as Philip said, he has been working on it with Hex since March 2016 to get the hardware out. That’s only 12 months ago. In that regard, I think he’s done well so far. And that is a fact…not emotional drivel.

As for my “professional” environment, I’ve rarely seen any project come about on time and on budget.I’m still waiting for local Mavic stock, my Tiko oh wait they went bust, got my SCIO tho 18 months late, don’t get me started on the energy sector. Have a look at the Note 7 I never got! That’s a billion dollar multi national that is going to take more than a year to get the next model out. In comparison having little to no budget at all, it surprises me that there is a PXH2 at all…as Philip put it “being done on the smell of a oily rag”. Re-read Philips post, he’s the one who is making the PXH2 happen. These are not excuses, this is the path the development took, and he doesn’t owe you an excuse IMHO. Also production is ongoing with stock coming though, so maybe it’s time to pre-order and hopefully this won’t become an issue again?

It’s normal in a open source project that everyone can feel as entitled as much as they contribute, but no more than that. Buying a couple of PXH2 will help, but not make it happen by itself. There’s always the option to do it yourself, that way maybe I can buy one off you sooner? :slight_smile:

Regards
Sam

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Oh no, you were certainly not the one, on the contrary. I was replying to Oxinarf, proficnc,etc who are taking it personal , arrogantly and aggressively.

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What do you expect when you come trolling like this? I remember you made quite a strong rant previously questioning the ‘design decisions’ of pixhawk 2 (which you then didn’t have the decency to keep public and deleted), yet you’re still so desperate to buy it…

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I expect and would hope Pixhawk2.1 to be available in shops. So hurtful for you ?

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Really? My post may be harsh, but it certainly isn’t arrogant or aggressive. And by the way, a rant is what? Professional, humble and calm?

It isn’t? Then what is a rant? From Cambridge dictionary:

to speak or shout in a loud, uncontrolled, or angry way, often saying confused or silly things

But hey, what do they know?

First of all, I haven’t attacked you in any way. You’re welcome to show it otherwise.
Second, it depends on how the customer behaves. If he rants, I would show him the way out - no, the customer isn’t always right. If he politely asks if I have a product that I don’t nor I know when I will, I’ll just answer he can pre-order and that’s it - what would he complain about? That I gave him truthful information? In the end, you aren’t a customer though, you could have pre-ordered on two batches already and you didn’t - maybe you want to explain why?

Not a fact, just your opinion.

A completely irrelevant fact for the current manufacturer that you tried to link in like it was related.

You are the only one ranting about it… So no fact, just your opinion again.

Not only not a fact, but not true at all.

You can pre-order… If you don’t and stock sells out again, who’s to blame? Not even Apple can keep demand with their products, let alone a small manufacturer.

This has been long enough, it’s the last time I’m addressing your complaining posts.

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Thanks guys! Appreciate the support!

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Come on Oxinarf, stop trolling and play your emotional delirium game. I said I would not enter that game, that is not the topic.
If you are not able to understand Pixhawk2.1 should be available in shops, you have a serious problem. There is Nothing aggressive about it against anyone. But you absolutely want to make it a personal matter and your reaction confirms your arrogance and aggressivity.
Not for me.

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Hey Hugues buddy.

I don’t quite get what is missing in the reasons why it has been delayed until now. But anyways.

Do you have any ideas how we can fix the PXH2 production delays so we can get them earlier?

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I do not know Sam, this is out of my control obviously. I am here the customer, not the provider. If I were the provider, I would ramp up production (and find the means for it) and would not announce a board is available to the whole planet when it is in fact not. That creates distrust and, in the end, indirectly damage to both the provider’s credibility and secondarily to Ardupilot’s credibility. Before some snowflakes start crying and screaming I’m a being mean and unfair and blabalbla, let me explain concretely why I say that: I decided to serve my own customers, a few years back, on the basis of Ardupilot since the beginning of my business because this is the best there is. On that everyone agrees and everyone praises the excellent job done by the developers. About my business, when you serve customers you have to commit to budget and delays. You just can’t say to a customer : please wait for a pre-order. For my own hobby use, this would be fine, I can wait, even for an undefined period of time. But in a real business environment you just can’t, not in European’s customer focus culture (which does not seem to be the same everywhere looking at the reactions from certain people here ). So if I want to provide my customer with the best hardware there is to run Ardupilot, it should be a pixhawk2.1, right ? I think everyone agrees on that too (although I still have some criticism on some design choices they made on it, but that is another debate). The issue is thus I just can’t base my business on an unstable sourcing of the autopilot boards. That is my rant. It is not against anyone, nor against Ardupilot (I’m probably the best defender and promotional lobbyist for Ardupilot and its developers - just look at my blogs and contribution to the wiki), nor against Philip from proficnc (who however thinks I attack him or his competencies, which is incorrect).

The summary of all of this takes the form of a very simple question (which is by the way the title of the post): when will Pixhawk2.1 be widely available with stocks in shops ?
If this question is felt by some as an aggression or a personal attack on them, then they should maybe take an appointment with their shrink.

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